Dybryd talk27 June UTC. I went ahead and cut it, but here is the text in case anyone else feels moved to try to improve it.
Neither of the above counter examples disagrees with my statement: The claim by the President of Iran was not, of course, on the basis of a representative study, and the New Guinea tribe I think Gil Herdt was the researcher who studied them was never about being homosexual as a sexual orientation. I'm reverting the good-faith edit  by Haiduc for two reasons. It would be an error to take statements about behavior and treat them as if they were statements about orientation, for example.
However, the manner in which this data is currently presented falls under trivial mention, and sounds like the article is attempting to warn us against certain sexual practices. Male two-spirit people were prized as wives because of their greater strength and ability to work.
Basically: tread very lightly when it comes to presenting theories and experimental ideas, and just stick to what we do know for certain about the subject.
Furthermore, should we really be citing opinion books that haven't used a recognized scientific method and been peer reviewed? If stigma greatly affected the estimates, then one would expect the rates to differ by country, and they do not seem to. It feels really inappropriate.
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If we do use these citations, we can therefore also reference them to support higher prevalence figures, which are also therein. The use of terms like 'LGBT' should be cut back to the few cases where they are appropriate. Skoojal talk24 May UTC. That prevents the article from giving the impression that the acronym 'LGBT' existed in the 80s as G2bambino says.
The variablity among is a characteristic only of the non-representative studies; the studies that used representative sampling have been remarkably consistent in their If you want to divide the claims into prevalence of homosexual behavior vs. I haven't had time to research the citations, but I know Bogaert's methods have been criticized. If Lesbian works for females, how about Spartan for males? Although it's factual, how one goes about presenting it and where is a matter to be monitored very carefully.
But, I still disagree that the figures would be an absolute descriptor of orientation, even apart from practice. I keep glaring over the paragraphs mentioning risks with sexual activities, and wonder what they hell they're doing there in the first place. I think the first matter is determining the sectional layout and the general bases that need to be presented. I don't for one moment think that that high estimate is correct, but that does not stop people from making it, and the article needs to reflect that.
Given that clarification I see no problem in retroactive relabelling in itself: shall we cease referring to the "Ancient Greeks" since they never called themselves that? I don't think there's anything to be salvaged from it, though. If not, how about "spouses"? As long as no figures are stated as fact.
If and when I have time to find reliable studies other than the ones already cited, I'll bring them here for discussion. We really need to discuss this attitude, and how it's affecting the article's tone.
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First, the paragraph was already sourced and mentioned husbands, not wives. While there is a lot of useful encylopedic data, much of it is obscured by random, trivial factoids and paragraphs of such info might be sourced merely on some survey conducted decades ago under conditions we can't even be sure meets scientific criteria.
Many sections call for this sort of attention. I suspect that people confuse Kinsey's cultural importance high with the accuracy of his actual findings low.
It's so POV that I'm inclined to just cut, rather than trying to fix it. Another idea to address article bloat would be to convert the references section into a scrolling list. That may call for a rather large chunk of the article to be removed.
Personally, I have no problem acknowleding the former, but his stats frequently get highly undue weight. There are already numerous other articles related to this subject, and again, it would be better to simply redirect to them if a mention of the subject is pertinent to the article matter itself. Same sex marriage is now be legal in California as of June 17, My refusal to use "Gay" as a quasi-euphemism for "male homosexuality" has nothing to do with homophobia.
Second, the precise nature of the sexual acts and Azande attitudes toward other acts seem excessively detailed for this article; nowhere else in the History section is there anywhere near that level of detail, so it's inconsistent and breaks the flow.
In fact, simple drawings with stick figures may have to be included. This article contains sentences such as this, 'With the outbreak of AIDS in the early s, many LGBT groups and individuals organized campaigns to promote efforts in AIDS education, prevention, research, patient support, and community outreach, as well as to demand government support for these programs.
Trivial items should probably be omitted completely, or at least redirect to other articles on the subject. Some would also argue that a western idea of sexual orientation is a social construct anyway for the very reason of behavior versus identity versus culture.
Their sexual life would be with the ordinary tribe members of the opposite sex.
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Someone with the ability to temporarily unlock thisplease fix this part. Gore Vidal, at least as renowned for defending homosexuality as normal as he is as a man of letters, also refuses to use Gay in that context for the same reason: its origin. Lehmann 13 June I have to add that that the new edits about gay rights inhibiting Christians' freedom of speech needs to be expanded because I don't get that at all.
That does not mean that this estimate can simply be presented as fact, without a qualifier about how making a reliable estimate is difficult. Surely not by individuals with female primary sexual characteristics. Another matter is reducing article bloat. If someone Haiduc? It would definitely be helpful here. Many sections that go into extensive detail could easily just redirect to other articles on the same subject.
Lastly, many editors who contribute toward this article regularly seem to be under the impression that anything with a factual backing merits inclusion in the article. When you crack open an encyclopedia, is that what you expect to see? Validity questions of the methodology can be raised and the reader left to decide.
History[ edit ] in the early 19th century, the bandia people ruled over the vungara and the two groups became the azande people. things to do in puglia: history, relaxation, and really good food
Skoojal talk21 June UTC. So, although it seems intuitive to say that not everyone would answer yes to being in a stigmatized group, it is much harder to make the case that people hide some stigmatized characteristics and not others. I'm not sure which template is used to do this, but I've seen it in other articles. Psychoanalysts have moved away from that hypothesis based on research, and it's POV to perpetuate that myth. The list of studies I put in the header is exhaustive; at least, if I have missed a study in that list, it was by accident.
Rivertorch talk26 May UTC. Currently there is a sentence in the part about American Indian practices that must be a mistake:.
This says that individuals with male primary sexual characteristics had their "sexual live" with ordinary tribe members having female primary sexual characteristics, and that these same individuals with male primary sexual characteristics were prizes as wives -- by whom? I also propose returning at least a vestige of Kinsey's research given its importance to the field. Self-identity, perhaps. We could even salvage some of the info from this section and inject it into those articles. Personally, I think each approach has merits; the important part to me is to be clear about when one is discussing behavior vs.
The "vs" in the title is pretty biased all by itself! I feel there is currently a lot of redundance. Gimmethoseshoes talk23 June UTC. The subsection "Homosexuality vs. Sounds good to me. It would be a good idea to sort of summarize this section and just redirect to other articles where appropriate.
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It was so routine, no one bothered to bring a phone to call for reinforcements. In saying "every representative poll ever conducted," I meant it literally. So, hopefully we can discuss this proposal further and maybe come upon some sort of agreement. Gimmethoseshoes talk30 June UTC. I realize this is a tedious proposal, but there really are a of issues with the current article that make the entire thing difficult to salvage. Actually, the original meaning of the word seems to be lost. So "opposite" above ought to be "same," no?